Is she a grandmother or an aunt, or both?

English female clothing 1550

Is Elizabeth Rogers married to Thomas Ayers and my 10th-time-great grandmother...or my 12-times great-aunt, depending upon whose ancestry line I look at!
I'm glad I don't have my grandmother and grandfather on the same tree, in this case, because only one set of dates/marriages would have appeared...that's one of the foibles of Ancestry.  If a lot of trees say one thing, it's considered fact.  Not necessarily!  

So my grandfather's tree (GER) has a line going back to Rev. John Rogers, the Martyr, (1506-1554) and further.  His son Bernard (1543-1609) would be my 12-times-great grandfather.

And Bernard's sister, Elizabeth Rogers (1553-1634), (perhaps the last child of Rev. John Rogers the Martyr) who married James Proctor. She would have been my 12-times-great aunt on my grandfather, George Rogers' tree (GER)....not a direct ancestor!

Historic background: Rev. John Rogers was a proponent of protestantism, and helped translate a version of the Bible into English along with other early translators (who weren't burned).  He gave a sermon denouncing the papacy and other anti-Catholic opinions to an audience including Queen Mary, the Catholic.

Wife and family watching first martyr of Queen Mary's reign, Rev. John Rogers being burned at the stake.

Source maybe 9th edition of the famous Protestant martyrology, Fox's Book of Martyrs

Rev. John Rogers the Martyr - burned at the stake by Bloody Mary (Queen briefly from 1553-1558) the Catholic Queen who wanted England to return to Catholicism, before Elizabeth went back to protestantism that her father Henry VIII started so he could maybe have a legitimate son with one of his many wives. (I know there were other forces at work, and this is a simplistic description!)

People!  Really!  And we worry about a President of the US these days who acts childishly.  We could easily cite Henry VIII's actions, which I dare say Trump would like to enact as well.
-------------------
New information on Ancestry:

OK, now I've been looking at my grandmother's tree (AS) and I have recently read one part of a privately published biography which assures some descendants that Elizabeth Rogers (now 1549-1612) married Thomas Ayers(Eyre) and their son John Ayer (1587/90-1657) immigrated to Salisbury, Massachusetts in 1637.  There he writes a will in 1657 leaving his goods to his wife Hannah and their children born in America. This is the book title: Ancestors of Silas Ayers and Mary Byram Ayers : including the Alden, Ayers and Byram families, published by Ancestry.

Yes in this new biography Elizabeth Rogers Ayers had no son, Capt. John Thomas Ayers who married a Swasey...at least in their book!  Their interests were in a line of Ayers, not Swaseys.  The Swasey's also published a book, with their surname in lines of descendants. (AS)

Following back further on AS tree, this Elizabeth Rogers (1549-1612) is also listed daughter of martyr Rev. John Rogers, (1507-1555)  Here she's possibly my 10th times-great grandmother.  The dates put her in the same generation, but marrying Thomas Ayers rather than someone by the name of Proctor (GER).  On this tree (AS) Mrs. Thomas (Elizabeth Rogers) Ayers doesn't live as long, but her son John Thomas Ayers, captain, comes to Ipswich in New England by 1622 and connects to my grandmother's Swasey line. I tend to believe this information over the newly discovered (to me) family biography which is actually also now available on the AS tree. I just haven't added it yet, and am keeping the biography as a source of information, yet to be proven true.

As always, the women in history were not given much information.  Someone lived and gave birth to the children, and maybe her first name was recorded, but not always who her parents were.  

I just upgraded my Ancestry subscription so I can read documents from other countries.  This is the source of this new information.

Are you confused yet? Me too.

Which one is true?  Ah, in these days of Fake News, I know not.

So for now I'm looking at this information with a grain of salt.  

Or let's say I'm not letting it get my goat!

Which is how I'm linking all this to Sepia Saturday this week...(though it's a stretch!)

I'm mainly mad that all the data and photos I'd collected for Rev. Rogers the Martyr were recently deleted from my tree.  I only opened my Rogers tree for public use when I had my DNA test done, and in that few days someone added a lot of cousins and their photos, and apparently took off some of the data I'd collected.  I've made my tree private again so others can't make changes to it!  My choice has always been to have only photos of those in my direct line, not of all the cousins.  That's how I know someone else had added them.

I at least went to my Rogers cousin's version of our family tree and copied back the photos of the data for Rev. Rogers.  I can't edit things there, but can see them!  Thanks Pat!

I refuse to get another headache from Ancestry.  But do you know how many hours I've spent looking at this particular patch of our tree? Way too many! 

Rogers line possibly connected to royals

The royal side

[Editors Note: All comments by me are in italics...there are comments from the original document by that author (unknown ancestry member). There was only one daughter of Sir Simon de Furneaux, namely  Elizabeth de Furneaux (according to everything I've found in Ancestry)
but…the author of the following says someone named Jane Furneaux was her/his 14^th great grandmother…daughter of Simon de Furneaux.  
As you may have already noticed, I do find fault with many details in the records I'm quoting, so this is just another one, until I find some "Primary Sources" which are birth, death, marriage records usually.
Elizabeth is listed in various places as born 1230…and she was called Dame Furenaux, which sounds a bit like Jane…but there just was the one surviving daughter of Sir Simon, upon which all this lineage may be based, rather than this Jane.  It’s interesting reading, though there may be some typos. Please note he uses Ap. to mean approximate dates.]

Jane Furneaux (Trivett) [sic] is my 14^th Great Grandmother, Her father was Simon DeFurneaux born ap 1294, and her mother was Alice DeUmfreville born ap 1306.

Simon’s father was Matthew DeFurneaux 2nd born ap 1264, his mother was Matilda Maud DeRalgh born Ap 1268.

Matthew 2nd’s father was Matthew DeFureneaux 1st born Ap 1211, his mother unknown at this time but born Ap 1237

Matthew 1^st’s father was Henry DeFurnellis born Ap 1150, his mother was Joan FitzWilliam Born Ap 1158.

Joan’s father was Robert FitzWilliam born 1132 this is where story begins.

Robert was the only Son of Sir William FitzRobert 2^nd Earl of Gloucester, Title at that time would only be handed down to living sons, Robert Died before William, and he only had one Child a daughter Joan, Title not be past to her, so it would have gon back to the Crown, William and King Henry 2^nd made a marriage arrangement, that one of his daughter’s would marry one of King Henry 2^nd ‘s Son’s, at the time John was the third son, and was not expected to be King, so William let his daughter Isabel marry John with Church permission as they were 2^nd Cousin’s.

So this would make John Earl of Gloucester, when William Died. No Children were reported from this Allice and John just before he came King anode this marriage.

We know go back to Sir William and see how he is Related to them.

William’s father was Sir Robert De Caen an Illegitimate son of Henry 1^st of England. thus ½ brothers to Empress Matilda.

Look up your history and you will see him and what role, he played in shaping the royal’s.

On the father’s side, we will follow the King’s back from here.

We know go back to Jane Furneaux born Ap 1329

Jane’s Mother was Alice DeUmfeville father was Henry DeUmfeville born Ap 1267 her mother was Isabella unknown surname born Ap 1227

Henry’s father was John de Umferville born Ap 1240. His mother was Alice de le Hurne born Ap 1244.

This is where this side of the family start. I am starting with the mother Alice de le Hurne

Alice’s father was John de le Hurne born Ap 1214, her mother was Margaret FitzJohn.

Margaret’s father was Richard Fitzroy born Ap 1190, her mother was Rohsia De Dover born Ap 1188.

Richard was the Illegitimate son of King John 1^st of England and John’s Cousin Adela Susann De Warenne mother.

King John’s father Henry 2^nd of England

King Henry 2^nd father being Geoffrey V Plantagenet, his mother was Empress Matilda Countess of Anjou.

With this we go back to Henry 1^st of England as Matilda is his only Child left.

=====

We know [now] go on to finding out who [how] we our [are] related to Thomas the Beckett

Again we go back to Jane Furneaux

We go to her father’s side.

Simon’s mother was Matilda Maud deRaiegh born Ap 1268

Matilda’s father was Warin deRalegh born Ap 1245 her mother was Joanna de Boteler (Botiller) born Ap 1245

Just a quick note for the DeRalegh family this is the same family as the Sir Walter Ralegh

Joanna’s father was Theobald le Botiller 3rd born Ap 1220 her mother was Margaret deBurgh born Ap 1230

Theobald 3rd ‘s father Theobald le Botiller 2nd  born Ap 1200 his mother was Joan deMarisco  born ap 1202

Theobald  2^nd ‘s father was Theobald 1^st Baron Butler Fitz Walter born Ap 1160 mother was Maud Baroness Butler leVavasour born Ap 1178.

Theobald 1^st’s father was Hervey Walter (Fitz) born 1130 his mother Matilda deValoines

Hervey’s father was Walter FitzWalter born Ap 1100 his mother was Godiva leBecket born ap 1110

Godiva is the sister of Thomas the Becket.

How are we related to Diana Frances Spencer ?

Start at Jane Furneaux

Jane  then  her sister Elizabeth Furneaux born Ap 1329 [Yes, there is the only child Elizabeth! Who knows how they came up with Jane!]

Her Son John FitzRogers born 1386 & Wife Anges Mordaunt born Ap 1390

They [their] Son John FitzRogers born 1425 & Wife Anne de Echingham born Ap 1420

They Son Henry Sir of Bryanstone Rogers born 1^st Mar 1448 & Wife Amy Stourton  Born 1457

They Son Sir John of Bryanston Rogers born Ap 1468 & Wife Elizabeth Courtenay born 1470

They Son Sir John  of Bryanston Rogers Born 1510 & Wife Katherine Weston born 1514

They Son Sir Richard Of Bryanston Rogers born Ap 1527, & Wife  Cecilia Luttrel born 1523

They Daughter Honora Rogers born 1545  & Husband  Lord Edward Beauchamp Seymour Born 1561

They Son William 2^nd Duke of Sumerset Seymour born 1 Sep 1587 and Wife Lady Frances Devereux born 1599

They Son Baron Henry Beauchamp Seymour born 1626 & Wife Mary Capell born 1630

They Daughter Lady Elizabeth Seymour born 1653 & Husband Thomas Bruce born 1656

They Daughter Lady Elizabeth of Elgin Bruce & Husband Earl George 3^rd of Cardigan Brudenell born 1685

They Son Robert Hon Brudenell born 2oth Sep 1726 & Wife Anne Bishop born 1728

They Son Robert 6^th Earl of Cardigan Brudenell born  1769 & Wife Penelope Anne Cooke born 1770

They Daughter Lady Anne Brudenell born 1795 & Husband George Charles Bingham

Born 1800

They Son George 4^th Earl Bingham born 1830 & Wife  Cecilia Catherine Gordon Lennox born 1838

They Daughter lady Rosealind Cecilia Caroline Bingham born 1869 & Husband James Albert Edward Hamilton born 1869

They Daughter Lady Cynthia Elinor Beatrix Hamilton born 1897 & Husband Albert Edward John Spencer born 1892

They Son Edward John Spencer born 1924 & Wife Frances Ruth Burke Roche born 1936

They Daughter is Diana Frances Spencer

To the Queen

Queen mother Elizabeth Angela Bowes Lyon

Her father Claude George 14^th Earl Strathmore Bowes-Lyon born 1855

His father Claude Bowes-Lyon born 1824

His father Thomas George Bowes-Lyon born 1801

His Thomas Bowes-Lyon born 1773

His mother Mary Eleonore Bowers Born 1749

Her father Goerge Bowes  born 1701

His mother Elizabeth Blakiston

Her mother Anne Bowes born 1634

Her father George Bowes born 1594

His father George Bowes

His mother Dorothy Mallory born 1529

Her father Sir Willliam Mallory

His father  Sir John Mallory born 1473

His mother Joan Constable

Her father Sir John 11 Constable born 1423

His mother Margaret de Umfreville born 1361

Her father Thomas 2^nd Baron de Umferville born 1361

His father Thomas 1^st Baron de Umferville born 1321

His father Robert 3^rd Earl de Umfreville born 1277

His father Gilbert de Umfreville born 1244

His father Gilbert de Umfreville born 1213

Then his Son John, his son Henry his daughter Alice and her daughter Jane Furneaux born 1329

[or Elizabeth born 1329 or 30]

But don’t take my word for it, because as I posted the other day, Elizabeth was either born when her mother died, or the year after…as some records give 1330 as her birth. And she is listed as giving birth at the age of 56 to Sir John Rogers according to Ancestry records (which I posted last week.)

Those Normans in Italy

First a happy birthday wish for my oldest son, Marty.  May you enjoy the day, the year, and many more to come!

I must go back and add this interesting article, for those who read what Wikipedia had given me already...about the Tancred part of the Norman rule in Sicily. I left a few days ago wondering how Tancred IV had been sired by a deceased Tancred III and a mother also either deceased or married to someone else...according to my Ancestry tree.  (Insert emoticon here of looking crosseyed and confused.)  I'm still working on that!

Here's another version of much the same story about the Crusades and the wars of Sicily and it's Norman rule (which says it only lasted 125 years, not 700.)

Taormina, Sicily, Italy

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

Tancred

KING OF SICILY

WRITTEN BY:

 The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica

Alternative Titles: Tancred of Lecce, Tancredi

Tancred

KING OF SICILY

ALSO KNOWN AS

• Tancred of Lecce
• Tancredi

DIED

February 20, 1194

Palermo, Italy

TITLE / OFFICE

• King, Sicily (1189-1194)

FAMILY / DYNASTY

• House of Hauteville

VIEW BIOGRAPHIES RELATED TOCATEGORIES

• government

DATES

• February 20

RELATED BIOGRAPHIES

• William I
• Odo of Bayeux
• Robert II
• Urban IV
• William I
• Bohemond I
• William II
• Robert
• Roger I
• Roger II

Tancred, Italian Tancredi (died Feb. 20, 1194, Palermo), king of Sicily whose brief reign marked the end of the Norman rule there.

An illegitimate son of Duke Roger of Apulia and grandson of Roger II, king of Sicily, Tancred joined an insurrection in 1155 against his uncle William I of Sicily and was imprisoned for five years. Released, he participated in another abortive coup in 1161 and went into exile.

Thirteen years later, forgiven his disloyalty to William I, Tancred led William II’sexpedition against Alexandria and later commanded a Sicilian fleet. William II’s death in 1189 without direct heirs found Tancred a serious contender for the throne. Opposed by the feudal barons but backed by the people and the papacy, he was crowned king in 1190. The first year of his reign was troubled by an anti-Muslim riot and by the stormy visit of Richard I the Lion-Heart of England and Philip Augustus of France on their way to the Third Crusade. Richard demanded a legacy promised him by William II and the restoration of the dowry of his sister Joan, William’s widow. During the six months he spent in Sicily while negotiations continued, Richard provoked a riot in Messina, which he then put down by plundering, burning, and occupying the city. Tancred bought peace by yielding to Richard’s financial demands, and in March 1191 Richard departed.

In 1191 the Holy Roman emperor Henry VI, who claimed the Sicilian throne through his wife, Constance I (daughter of Roger II), marched south to claim Constance’s inheritance. He invaded Tancred’s mainland territory and unsuccessfully besieged Naples. Constance remained in Salerno when he retreated and fell into Tancred’s hands. Tancred gave in to pressure by the pope to release his valuable hostage to papal custody, but en route Constance managed to escape and return to Germany.

Three years later Henry made a fresh attempt on Sicily, his campaign partly financed by the ransom paid for Richard I the Lion-Heart, who had been made a prisoner in Germany. Before Henry reached Sicily, Tancred died suddenly, leaving only a young son, William III. The barons rallied to Henry, who was crowned king of Sicily on Christmas Day, 1194. Tancred’s family was promised safe conduct but, under pretext of the discovery of a plot, was seized and sent in captivity to Germany, where William III died, probably murdered, ending the 125-year Norman rule of Sicily.